MAP 103: How Client Gifts Can Backfire w/ Phil Treadwell

When you give a gift to a client, are you making them feel special? Does the gift make them feel like you truly wanted to do something nice for THEM? Or does your choice of gift make it all about you? If it's the latter, you may actually be damaging your relationship with them. It's important that real estate agents really think this through before giving any more gifts to clients this holiday season, or any other time for that matter.

Want to know some of the best and worst business-related gifts I've ever given or received? Starting there may help give you some guidance on how to choose your gifts wisely so that they make the receiver happy and genuinely grateful.

This week, we're joined by Phil Treadwell, host of the Mortgage Marketing Expert podcast and a bio longer than Moby Dick. Phil is a close friend and business partner, and one of the most respected professionals in the industry. He brings a wealth of knowledge, and we have a great conversation about some of the best, and worst, business-related gifts we have ever received.

Plus, as you'll soon hear, our conversation goes completely off the rails at one point, which ends with me making childish "no arms and no legs" jokes. It's ridiculous, but we think it's funny, so enjoy :)

Reminder, the Massive Agent Podcast is an ally of the armless. We are an Armless-friendly  podcast for Realtors. Keep that in mind as you listen! LOL


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SPEAKER_00 0:00

On today's episode of the Massive Agent Podcast, we're talking about gifting, giving gifts, what you should do, how you should do it, what you should not do, why not, and everything about that. There's definitely going to be some toes stepped on today, but hopefully you learn something so you're not turning people off, but actually, actually getting the results you wanted from your gift.

SPEAKER_02 0:25

The massive aged podcast. We need generation tips and strategies to give you more leads and sell more bones.

SPEAKER_00 0:32

I love to buy houses, I like to sell houses.

SPEAKER_02 0:35

It takes brass balls to sell it. Wait a minute. Leads a week. I've had better. Have I got your attention now? Here's your host, Dustin Brown.

SPEAKER_00 0:50

What is up, everybody? Welcome to episode 103 of the Massive Agent Podcast. And today we're bringing on the first repeat guest on the show. And and I'm I'll be totally honest, he's not my first choice. Not my first choice, uh, but we're gonna settle today for Phil Treadwell, host of the Mortgage Marketing Expert Podcast. He's uh he's co-founder of the Industry Syndicate, business partner of mine, very good friend, but my second choice. Uh yeah, jokes aside, uh, we had a scheduling conflict with the guest who was supposed to be on today, Phil, uh, because he sits around all day playing video games, has nothing else to do. So he was obviously available. Um he just had to push his his uh Whataburger um appointment um another hour, which he was fine. He was fine because he already had Whataburger for breakfast. So anyway, I taught wow, talking a lot of shit uh without him here to defend himself. And he's not gonna hear this until the episode goes live, which is fantastic. But no, in all seriousness, uh next week's show, we have Tyler Jack Harris coming on. If you follow Tyler Jack Harris on Instagram, you know what I'm talking about. This guy brings absolute fire. He's actually in the insurance space. He's he set all these records for selling insurance policies. He's a straight-up entrepreneur the same way a real estate agent or a loan officer is. Incredible. But he was going to be on this week, he's gonna be on next week. So this week, thank God, we were able to get the Phil Treadwell from the Mortgage Marketing Expert Podcast. And we're because of the time of year, because Christmas is coming up, um, we're talking about gifting and and it's a hot topic. And I see so many people giving gifts that make me cringe when they put it on social media and I see how they did it, or I hear them in Facebook groups asking questions about um, hey, I want to give this as a gift, how can I do this? And I'm not, I don't I'm not gonna spoil it till we get into the interview, but so many of you guys are gifting the wrong way by making it about you and not for the person you're giving a gift to. It's ridiculous. And this whole, well, I need to do it a certain way because then it's a tax deduction. It's once you hear today's episode or the interview with Phil, you're gonna realize how ridiculous that is. So, uh, we'll get to that interview here in a second with Phil Treadwell. Welcome to the Massive Agent Podcast. My name is Dustin Brome, your host. If you are new to the show, welcome. And man, there's 102 other episodes before this you gotta go catch up on. But this is a good place to start. This is a great episode to start with. As much shit as I talked about Phil at the beginning. Um, no, he's there's he is one of the people I respect the most in our industry. Just with no qualifiers. He is one of the people I respect the most, and we're lucky to have him today, and you'll see why here in just a second. Uh, but if you're new to the show, my name is Dustin Brome. I am a national speaker, trainer, and real estate marketing coach. I host another podcast called Industry Connected. I'm a realtor in Salt Lake City, Utah with EXP Realty. I've been an agent for about nine years, co-founder of the Industry Syndicate, and uh which is real estate's podcast and media network, founder of the Massive Agent Society, our one agent per market coaching program. Uh, it's more than that. Part online course, part Facebook ads, database you can copy and paste, ongoing training, support, coaching, incredible. If you want to see if your market is even available, go to MassiveAgen Society.com. And then uh quick shout out to our sponsor for this show before we get into the interview. Shout out to Easy Agent Pro. I've had an Easy Agent Pro website for three and a half to four years. Guys, you need a website. You need your own website. Just having a profile page on your broker, uh, brokerage's website is so inefficient. Or not not in it's so um man, totally, totally losing my train of thought already. Didn't even get into the interview already. It's it's insufficient. That's what I'm looking for. It's so insufficient when people are gonna Google you, right? You're referred to somebody, they hear about you, you meet someone, they Google you. Are you gonna show up? And if you do show up in those results, how do you show up? With credibility or without? You need a website. I highly recommend you go check out Easy Agent Pro. They are doing a ridiculous deal throughout the month of December. If you're listening to this replay and it's not December, I'm sorry because you're not gonna get access to this anymore. And guys, you're planning 2020. You you're you already know you need a website. Start now before January 1st so you can get this deal. For listeners of this show only, they do not offer this anywhere else. You must use the discount code Dustin at checkout. You need to go to MassiveAgent Podcast.com slash EAP for EasyAgent Pro. And what you get for for being a uh a listener of the show, the month of December, your first month, one dollar. You can get started with an Easy Agent Pro website for one dollar. No startup fee, no first month's fee. Literally, if you have a dollar today and maybe you have a closing coming up in two or three weeks, and you're like, well, I I should probably wait for the closing, whatever. If if you have some some money coming down the line, get it before the end of December. Okay. It's a dollar. The first month is a dollar, lock in that deal before December 31st. You but you must use the discount code Dustin. And in addition to getting started for a dollar, you also get their brand new CRM that's built in for free for 12 months. Uh, but you must use discount code Dustin. Go get it. It's the website I've been using and I swear by. Uh I they I do not use them because they sponsor the show, because three and a half years ago I didn't have a show. They sponsor the show because I use them. And I swear by them, and I reached out to them and asked them if they would sponsor the show. They agreed because I believe in them that much. Go take advantage. All right, let's jump into the interview about gifting. I hope to God, if some of you guys are doing the things we're about to talk about, that you stop them or that you make slight tweaks to them. A lot of this stuff I did wrong myself because I just wasn't thinking it through. And so many of the so much of the stuff that you guys are doing wrong, or that is just you're doing selfish things without realizing it because others do it. You see others doing it, you think, oh, that's the way it's got to be done. So let's jump into the the interview with Phil Treadwell. What's up, guys? I'm here with Phil Treadwell, the first repeat guest on the Massive Agent Podcast. Phil, against my better judgment, you're back. And um, I'm gonna be fully transparent here. You're here because I had somebody cancel.

SPEAKER_01 7:50

And so I'm I'm I'm fully aware of that. When you invited me, I think the invitation was, hey, I had someone cancel and uh I need help. And so I'm taking pity on you by being a uh repeat guest for you.

SPEAKER_00 8:04

Exactly. I appreciate you stepping up to the plate. What's up, man? Not much, brother. How's it going? Going good, going good. Um, yeah, so it is the season for gifting, for everyone to start putting their logos on gifts and then distributing them and doing pop buys, you know, the Brian Baffini pop buys where you just you know randomly creep people out by ringing their doorbell. Um so you're on the mortgage side of the industry and and have been for quite a while. Um this time of year, do you see a lot of LOs just doing a bunch of gifting, I assume?

SPEAKER_01 8:40

Yeah, you know, it's it sucks, honestly, because so many people, especially on the mortgage side, wait until this time of year to want to reach out to anyone. They're like, oh, I need to get my you know mailing list together, my email address, you know, list together and all these things. They're trying to, you know, order bulk of items with you know their logos and their NMLS numbers on there and all those kinds of things. And uh yeah, it's it's it's a little frustrating because while the intent of what they're trying to do is good, the execution a lot of times is is not all that great.

SPEAKER_00 9:15

I agree. Now, I I have no problem with with people with agents and LOs this time of year giving out a bunch of gifts. Like it is the season. Like that's awesome. What I have a beef with, and I what I don't so I personally it annoys the shit out of me, but I don't think what I don't think people are thinking through what they're doing. When you give a gift, you're it's supposed to be something nice for the other person, whoever's receiving it. It's supposed to be a thoughtful gesture for the person you're giving it to. But when you put your logo on it, when you put your name on it, your phone number, you include business cards in the package, you do all this the branding stuff, now you've made it about you. It's not about them. I just think that's the worst thing ever.

SPEAKER_01 10:02

Yeah. You know, I yeah. I I completely agree with you, and I'll I'll give you an example of the right way to do it. Uh, it was pretty perfect timing. Today, I had a package in the mailbox, and it was a gold bubble envelope, like actual like metallic gold, super exciting, right? It was really solid and thick. I opened it up, and it was a technology vendor. Uh, the head of the company was on my podcast, super sharp guy. We've we've had a couple of conversations, and there was a card branded with their company. Really nice note inside that was talking about being thankful for the friendship and and the the friendship and relationship that we've made over the last year. And inside of it was a book. Wasn't their book, had no direct tie to the book, just a really cool book about business and being a thought leader and you know, sowing good seed, if you will. And uh it was a great gesture because it it wasn't about them. Now, of course, the card had some of the branding stuff on there, but it wasn't a call to action. He just sent me a really cool gift that he thought I might like.

SPEAKER_00 11:10

It's it's really interesting too because I've received similar gifts. Uh, in fact, just the other day I got a thank you card from a local mortgage broker here in Salt Lake. Shout out to Anthony Van Dyke, Van Dyke Mortgage. Um, I've never done a deal with him, but he invited me and my family to go see Frozen 2. They were doing some movie night, and sent me an email, invited us. I'm like, cool, let's go. I've heard good things about him. I recognize the name and his branding because he's been doing things right. Afterwards, uh, I mean, we had a great time and everything. Then yesterday I got a thank you card in the mail from him thanking me for going to the movie that he paid for. Like he brought us there and he was thanking me for coming. It didn't include his phone number, it didn't include a business card, it didn't have like, let's get together this week and talk about you know how we can work together. It was just thank you. That's it. And so shout out to you, Anthony, for doing it right because that made a great positive impact. Now you don't have here's what here's what's lost on everyone, Phil. If you want someone to reach out to you, you don't need to tell them to reach out to you in this context, right? If you just give somebody if you are genuine and you send them a gift like the amazing one you just got, or a thank you card, or something, they will reach out to you automatically because you did something nice for them. That that just happens. It's it's default. So you don't have to ask for, you don't have to tell them what to do, just give them something nice, and everything you want it to happen will happen unless you make it about you. A thousand percent.

SPEAKER_01 12:46

And I think in this particular context of gift giving around the holidays, where you're sending stuff out to different vendors, to clients, to referral partners, to whatever it is, it's like our brain shuts off to how we give gifts and the other part of our life. Absolutely. The the personal equivalent of what so many mortgage and real estate professionals are doing in gift giving is showing up at your aunt's house and giving her something that at the bottom says, uh I'll just use you as an example because this is probably something that you have done before. Gift from Dustin Brome of the Massive Agent Podcast. But that's essentially what we're doing whenever in business we send someone a gift with our company logo on there. Like it doesn't make sense in the personal side of things, but yet all of a sudden they we think it makes sense on the business side. And really what we should be doing is saying if I were getting this gift, what would make it cool for me? Well, you know, our own company logo. So if we're giving it to someone, if you want to put a logo on there, put their company logo on there. Nobody, nobody cares. We need to put some thought into it. It's just like when we talk about social media as an advertising platform, we forget that it's social, right? And we just focus on the media. In gift giving, we're we're we're more focused on the gift and how it benefits us than we are the fact that we're giving it to someone.

SPEAKER_00 14:12

Yeah. Absolutely. And I don't really have a problem if the card that you include with it has your logo on it. Of course. I don't have a problem with that because in this context, like if it's a past client, you have a business relationship that's probably hopefully, if you if you've been doing it right and you're just cool, it's it's slowly grown from a business relationship into additionally a personal one, but you have a business relationship. So in that context, it makes sense that your logo might be there, but just be conscious of where it is. If you give somebody an item, like a cutting board. Why didn't I know this was gonna go to cutting boards? Gee, it's a big surprise. And and then your logo is all over their damn cutting board, like that's that's a stretch. That's tacky, that's weird. Like, have your logo on the card, um, or not at all. Just give them a cutting board. Whenever they use it, they'll remember you just because you gave it to them. You don't have to put your NMLS number or your real estate license number or your phone number or whatever the hell um or your your username. Like, you don't have to do that because then it's a gift about you. The same thing at closing when you see realtors and LOs hand they just signed papers. They people somebody just sold their home or they just bought a home. You hand them one of those big cardboard cutout keys with your logo that says hashtag best realtor, best lender. It's just so bad. And Phil, I used to do that. Well, not the big cutout thing, because that's so obviously ridiculous, but thank you cards. I used to put a business card or two in a thank you card because I wasn't thinking it through. I didn't, I wasn't thinking about how they would feel if they opened that thinking, oh, this is nice. Oh, business cards. Right. I just didn't think it through. Right.

SPEAKER_01 16:09

Well, and I I I think another another potentially unpopular opinion here. I know that uh we've got a lot of real estate professionals here. Cut co knives. Okay, I know that that's extremely popular closing gift and holiday gifts in the industry.

SPEAKER_00 16:26

Yes.

SPEAKER_01 16:28

I have several cut co knives, they're a phenomenal knife. We use them often, except for the one that had the real estate gal, it was a girl, her and her company logo and name and phone number on this big knife. And then inside of it was some three smaller knives. Guys, we've never used the knife that had her company logo on there, but the three small ones, we did. Now, we do think about when I have those knives, I'm like, this is a great knife. Like, you know, where do we get this? We should get more. To your point, if you'll give someone a gift for the purposes of giving them a gift to here's a phrase we use a lot, add value, people will remember you. People will want to do business with you because you made it about them. And I think that's the underlying theme of almost everything we've said, you know, so far is just like in our personal lives, it's about thinking about the other person and giving something that the other person may find valuable or that they may want, and not just about what we find valuable or what we can get out of it.

SPEAKER_00 17:33

Exactly. It's um the intent behind it matters a lot. And it's the intent is obvious when the receiver receives it. And it's funny that I mean cut coat knives are great. Like they're great knives.

SPEAKER_01 17:48

It's funny that the one that has her shit all over it, you just it's just it feels weird to pull out a big knife that has a real estate company logo on it when we're trying to, especially, you know, like whenever you entertain, like my wife will invite some other people over, and you know, you're using a knife to like finish up the little hors d'oeuvres or you're finishing dinner, whatever. It feels awkward to have a knife out with a real estate logo on it. Like we couldn't afford to buy our own knife, so we got this one that was given. You know, I mean, it's yeah, it's just weird.

SPEAKER_00 18:16

Yeah, yeah. Your your countertops loaded up with all this swag from a conference or something with our cutting logos and yeah. Yeah. Uh now we're not I'm not knocking cutting boards as a gift. I've given cutting boards that are personalized, but they don't have my shit all over them. It's for them. And and so, Phil, why do people feel the need to put their their logos and branding all over it? I know there's numerous reasons, but but let's let's dive into why, and then we can reverse engineer from there.

SPEAKER_01 18:48

So a couple couple of things, and I'll also say I'm not knocking promo gifts. I'm actually an advocate for promo gifts and putting your name on stuff and giving it away, taking it to conferences where people's entire intent is to pick up random shit that they're gonna throw away half of, use half of, stick in a drawer, whatever. Totally. I even have some cool promo item gifts that I've used in the past. One of mine, uh, and I'll throw this idea for people to steal, is a really nice wine bottle opener because that's something that people do put in a drawer and they have multiple of, and they use because whenever you can't find one, you need to grab one, and that's something that people have commented on. Hey, it's a really good quality wine opener, and so we do have our logo on there, but we don't we're we're giving those out just to give them out, right? Brand awareness. There's a completely different thing in promo items whenever you're branding than it is giving a gift that you're putting your logo all over. So I definitely want to make that distinction of we're not poo-pooing all over promo items and branding and and putting your logo on stuff. We're talking about it's Christmas, it's you know, Hanukkah, it's it's a holiday season where you're giving gifts to friends and family and and talking about being appreciative for relationships and clients and things in your life. This is a time not to be focused on branding. It needs to be focused on the relationship and doing the right thing. But the short answer to your question is I think a lot of people think they have to. I think it's if I'm giving a gift that's business related, for it to be a tax write-off, I need to have my logo on it, or I can't buy something in bulk and not put anything on there, that would be weird. And the short answer is if you're buying something to give it for business, you don't have to have your logo on it, at least in the mortgage side of things. It's it's if it's a true business expense, it's a true business expense. You know, I I think that there's a lot of misconceptions around that topic. Um, and I think the other side of it is because people continue to do that thing, uh, they they continue to put their logo on stuff and give it out, people don't know any better. I think that's why we're having this conversation is to let people know hey, you can buy a gift and give it to someone, it'd be a business expense and you not put your crap all over it.

SPEAKER_00 21:03

Absolutely. Yeah, and I I hear this all the time in Facebook groups too. Um it's well, if you put your logo and your branding on it, then it's considered advertising and it's tax deductible. Whereas if you don't, it's you can't deduct it. I don't look, I'm not a I'm not a CPA, I'm not a tax expert, but my understanding is like yours, it's still a business expense. It's like maybe it's a different type of business expense, but who gives a shit? Um, that's still a legit thing. But even if it wasn't tax deductible, do you want someone to receive a genuine gift, or do you want them to receive in their eyes, do you want them to open it and say, Wow, this is a very nice tax deduction? Agreed.

SPEAKER_01 21:49

And I I I think you're hitting the nail on the head there because while again, we're not CPAs, everyone needs to check with their individual accountants because every gift and every circumstance may be a Little different, but the the point should be are you trying to save a little bit on taxes on an item, or are you trying to build a relationship and build your business the right way? And if you think about the the irony of this is by not expecting something in return, by not trying to get something out of it, that's really the best and most fertile environment for you to get something in return and to get something out of it. But because people go into it with the wrong expectations and with the wrong mindset, they end up sabotaging themselves and creating the environment where what they're wanting isn't actually going to happen.

SPEAKER_00 22:37

Yeah. Yeah. It's it's I think that there's just this mentality among salespeople, especially commission-based salespeople, lenders, uh, insurance people, realtors, you know, car salesmen, that every chance they get, they need to be promoting, they need to be talking about what they do, they need to be saying, hey, look at me. And I understand that urge, because forever, for four or five years of my career, that's what I did. And and to a certain extent in certain contexts, I still do. But it if you make it about somebody else, like you to your point, if you do something nice for somebody, to do something nice for somebody, you don't expect to do something nice and then get a referral, uh, you're gonna end up getting referrals. It's it just people know people are cynical, they're more and more cynical every day. And if you just think things through how does the receiver feel on pop buys, if you go pop by somebody's house at three in the afternoon and you're a 50-year-old male and they are a 40-year-old stay-at-home mom female, that's kind of weird. Like, you gotta be self-aware about that stuff. I was talking to an agent the other day that that was like, Yeah, I don't do pop bys for that reason. He's like, it's just too weird. But are you freaking people out, or are you actually enriching their day? Like, think about things, think about how uh it's received. We don't do that nearly enough in this industry.

SPEAKER_01 24:14

So, so can we unpack this whole pop by idea for a second? Because start with the ridiculous name. Like, I'm in the mortgage industry, and we don't just randomly show up to people's houses unwelcome. That's like a completely different different kind of thing. So isn't that weird? Walk me through the logic and the uh the system of what this is supposed to be.

SPEAKER_00 24:36

I'm I'm genuinely curious. I will do my best to uh I'm gonna channel my inner Brian Buffini here. So it's all about touches. You know, how many times can you touch a past client or a prospect? Uh, how many, how many times can they get an email from you or a text or a card or a gift or whatever? And a pop by in theory is much more impactful because it's face-to-face. And if you pop by somebody's house with a gift, unexpected, with something to give, in theory, that's that's awesome, right? That's an impactful, positive, nice thing. In practice, it's creepy. It's creepy.

SPEAKER_01 25:15

Yeah. So I, you know, with all due respect to that system and people that have success for that. I, as a consumer and a customer in real estate, again, I'm I'm in the mortgage industry, so I understand how a lot of this works. It is much more effective for me to get a gift from someone that's about me or geared towards me with a card, with a note. I don't care if your card and the envelope and everything else has your company oozing all over it. But the gift itself had some thought about me, like the one I got today. The guy knew I read books. As I'm thinking back, he and I had conversations about this author, and I hadn't read a book by this author. So I would like to think that he took that away and picked out a book and sent it to me because of that conversation. If he did, it's it's even better. And that's going to have more impact than if he knocked on my door and said, Hey, here's a book for you, right? Not that I'm opposed to that, but I also think there's a lot of things that have to go right for that scenario to work. And there's a whole myriad of things that can make that awkward or uncomfortable or not go right, versus there's a really high percentage of getting a really good, thoughtful gift with a nice little handwritten note about what's thinking of you, uh, or Merry Christmas, Happy Hanukkah, happy holidays, whatever, happy new year, of that going well. Like there, there's there's a lot of circumstances where that's going to work, where this whole pop by thing, um, I understand the touches, I understand the sales side of things, but that's you're you're risking turning people off. The the upside is my you know, my dad says the juice isn't worth the squeeze.

SPEAKER_00 26:53

Right. And look 10 years ago, 15, 20 years ago, that's the way you did it. I remember when somebody came to the door, it was an exciting thing. You know, it was like, oh, cool, I wonder who's here to see us. Remember what time we live in. You have to remember because it's funny, every single one of us now, when the doorbell rings, we're like jumping behind the couch. We're we're we're like, oh my God, who is it? Like, you know, uh turn off the lights. It it's just weird. And we don't like surprises in our lives. They interrupt. We want everything on demand. That's why texting beats out phone calls in many situations. We we don't want a phone call because it interrupts. We weren't expecting it. You got to ring at the doorbell, you're not expecting it. Especially if you're a stay-at-home mom, you have kids running around, you're trying to get lunch ready, and all of a sudden the doorbell rings and it's your real estate agent, unexpected, unannounced, even if they have a gift that's still that's like cool, like okay. Like, I wish you would have told me you were coming. I hate when people come by, even family members. I don't want people coming by unannounced. That's just the the world we live in. And every one of us acts that way in our own personal lives. Then you're gonna go pop by unannounced at somebody's house. I don't care what you're giving them. You're just you're fighting an uphill battle right off the bat. Whereas if you said, Hey, are you gonna be home at three? I have something for you. Right. Like, why not just do that or mail it to them for God's sakes?

SPEAKER_01 28:23

Well, and I I think that the conversation needs to continue to go back. What's the intent here? Right? Yeah, the intent of giving a gift is to thank them for something, to show your appreciation, to deepen a relationship. It should not be about uh getting more leads or converting more leads. Yes, that's a byproduct, because at the end of the day, as you and I say over and over, business is, was, and always will be about relationships. We do business with people that we like, right? So part of doing business is having relationships. But there's a difference and a different hat to wear when you're talking about lead creation, when you're talking about lead conversion than it is about this time of year where you're showing appreciation for those people that have helped you create and convert leads. And so whether it's showing up at somebody's house, showing up at somebody's work, giving them a gift, we need to stop and think for a second. What message is this going to send? Or what message is it that I want it to send? And the basic of human behaviors and how we interact, the more we carry that into our business, the more comfortable people are. And you're exactly right. We're in a different time than we were five years ago or 10 years ago. And I think that's why, not to get too deep on a different subject, but that's why you and I talk a lot about making sure that the people that are giving you advice on how to build your business, on how to market yourselves, that they have some level of connection to what's actually happening in that industry right now. What's happening on the street with real estate professionals and loan officers? How are they building their business? What type of things are they doing to be successful? Because there's a lot of people out there that are really smart, that have great reputations, that have been successful years ago, that are giving you advice that may or may not be applicable anymore. And I'm not taking away from everything they've done or everything they're saying, or 90% of what they're saying, maybe 100% spot on. But we as mortgage and real estate professionals have to use a filter and say, okay, in my business, in my town in 2019, is that right? And most of us should be smart enough to make that determination on whether or not that's going to help our business or make us look really creepy showing up on somebody's doorstep with a gift with our logo all over it.

SPEAKER_00 30:47

Yes. Yeah. Knowing look, consumer attention, consumer expectations is so important. And all you have to do if you're like, oh, I don't even know where to start. Like, how do I learn about that stuff? Look in the mirror. Right. How how do you act? What when somebody rings your doorbell and you're not expecting it, what what are the first thoughts that go through your mind? For me, none of them are good. Like, not necessarily like, oh my God, it's a serial killer, but just like inconvenience, annoyance, irritation. What the hell do they want? Um, we we have a no-soliciting sign. What the hell are they doing? You know, like it's never good. And so that's that's what you're up against. Same thing when the phone rings. Uh when it's an unknown number, you're calling people. Every day people get more and more upset and fed up with uh with all the phone calls and all the all the disruptions and interruptions of their day. Everything we do now is moving towards on-demand, automated convenience. That's where our society's going. Are you going there or are you still operating like 1997? And that's important. You're you're absolutely right, Phil. Uh, there's people that that are smart that have, you know, 60% of the time they're right every time. And uh that's what I was everything goes back to an anchor man or a dumb and dumber or a Seinfeld uh reference reference for me. But that's what I was thinking of is is you know, are they do they know what it's like today? I don't think that a lot of these coaches or programs that people follow are relevant today the way they were years years past.

SPEAKER_01 32:27

Well, and I like that you use the word rev relevant because that's a theme throughout everything that should be happening in business. Your message, your marketing content, your brand, your your service level, the gifts that you send, if it can be said is relevant, you you're probably on the right track. And so I I love that that word is being used because you know, we should be relating or trying to relate to other people. So again, one of the first things you said is look in the mirror. What type of gifts do you like to get? What type of marketing content do you respond to? People ask me all the time, how did you get uh a big group of listeners on your podcast? And the short answer is I made a podcast that I wanted to listen to because I didn't listen to many, because a lot of them had 10-minute intros and lists of sponsors and you know all this kind of stuff, and it took forever to get to the meet. So my particular podcast, it doesn't take you very long, about 60 seconds, to get into the conversation. I knew that I would attract people like me to my podcast. And at the end of the day, if we're all honest with ourselves, we like to do business not just with people we like, but that do business like us. And so that's the best test group we have is ourselves and being honest and self-aware enough to understand what we like and what we don't like, and when we apply that to our business, we'll attract people to us like we are, and at the end of the day, that's where we're gonna get the best results.

SPEAKER_00 33:59

Yes, love it. I was uh I wanted to end this today with giving some specific gift ideas, but I don't I don't even think that's the best thing. Phil and I could sit here and rattle off a bunch of items or or things that you could do, but here's what's wrong with that. None of it's personalized. We could talk about a cutting board, but what if you have a client with no arms? You know what I mean? I a very extreme example, and if you if you don't have arms, I apologize. But you know what I'm saying. You don't really need a cutting board now, do you? So the best possible thing. I'm trying to dig myself out of that hole, Phil. Uh the best possible thing.

SPEAKER_01 34:38

You can't dig it out without any arms there.

SPEAKER_00 34:41

But um you're gonna need arms for that.

SPEAKER_01 34:44

Yeah, I apologize to the to the to that community as well.

SPEAKER_00 34:46

We're we're we're just why you why are we so anti-arm uh anti-armless? I don't know. Uh okay. Here's where I think we this is an armless friendly podcast. It it always has been historically. I think that's clear.

SPEAKER_01 34:58

The record we're gonna show that in the show notes.

SPEAKER_00 35:00

I I'm gonna have to. We're we're very armless friendly. And for those who are armally inclined, um we just need to change the subject real quick here. Woo! So what do you call someone with no arms and no legs on your doorstep? I don't know. Matt. Matt. Oh, jeez. What do you what do you call someone with no arms and no legs in a hot tub? I don't know. That'd be Bob. Oh my gosh.

SPEAKER_01 35:27

To all the Mats and Bobs out there, you're welcome.

SPEAKER_00 35:29

Yep, and I could keep going, like the lady with one leg named Eileen. Anyways, um Jesus. I've totally lost it. Some work for your editor to do on this one right here. Oh, this is this is going nowhere. And I mean it's staying in. This is staying, it's not going anywhere. Um, instead of telling you, get them an Alexa dot, like, even though I think those are good things. Here's what I I'll give you an example. And Phil, think about some gifts, some specific gifts you've received or given that have been customized and thoughtful, that meant the world to you or to whoever you were giving it to. Two things that I've done. Um, I had a client who loved, and I think I've talked about this on a previous show, but that was a year or so ago. They loved the Chicago Cubs, loved the Cubs. And I knew because I listened to them over time, that their favorite player was Ryan Sandberg. And I don't really know baseball. Cub it up, cover up. Yep. I'm not a huge baseball guy, but like I I knew the name and and I kind of filed it away. And they bought a house um foreclosing, uh, or because they were they were actually buying right around Christmas time, which was awesome. So I brought him a Christmas gift slash closing gift, and I went on Amazon and I just searched for Ryan Sandberg. I looked for the player, and I was thinking jerseys, balls, bats, whatever. And I found this little action figure that came with a sports card. And I didn't think a whole lot of it. I was like, that's pretty cool. You know, I bet they don't have that. So I got it. It was like one of those starting lineup little action figures, and I got it for him. And oh, you know what? No, I didn't know that their favorite player was Ryan Sandberg. I know that their favorite number was his number. I didn't know the name. So I was like, oh, cool, that player has the number. I got it. They open it and he starts crying. He's like, How did you know that he's my favorite player? I'm like, I just knew that was your favorite number. He's like, Well, that's why. It's my favorite player. Um, I think he'd even met him once, and and like there was this really deep connection. And so what cost like 15 bucks on Amazon made a huge impact. And and I since helped them to sell uh the place I helped them buy a few years later, and it was still like on their desk. And and they mentioned it every time I went over, they mentioned it. It made an impact because it I took a little extra time to think about what they like and what's important to them. One other one other idea. Um, I had some clients who they they raced, uh they had some Jack Russell Terriers and they they raced them. Like they were they were racing Jack Russell's and they were like championship-winning Jack Russell Terriers. And you know, I it's not a world I live in, but I remembered that because I thought it was kind of cool. So it was Christmas time, and I I found on Amazon some Jack Russell Terrier ornaments, and I got a few different ones, and I didn't know that they had actually been collecting Jack Russell things. They did not have those that I found on Amazon, and so they were like, oh my god, that this is so thoughtful. And and it did it doesn't cost a lot of money, it doesn't take a lot of time, it just takes thought and effort. That's it. Thousand percent.

SPEAKER_01 38:44

You know, I've I've got uh uh about three quick examples. One was a gift that was given to me, and it was a personal gift um by my mother-in-law. She knows I read a lot of books, but that I'm also listening to a lot of podcasts for time reasons. And she a lot of times will ask different books that I'm reading, and and we will get into those conversations. But for Christmas last year, she gave me an annual membership or a uh uh ID or login or whatever to a company that does book summaries. And uh, she and I had had conversations about there's some books that I'll really study and I'll I'll listen to it on Audible and I'll read it. And there's other ones that I just kind of skim through because I want the gist. Well, she gave me a membership to a book summary uh website, which I thought was extremely thoughtful, and I've I've utilized that because they have three different types of summaries. They have like a one-page synopsis, like an eight-page summary, and then some that are more in depth. And it would just, it meant a lot because she took it from a conversation, like she she was actually listening. Another example of one was actually a story that I heard. It was a former colleague that was being recruited by a different company. And the company flew in. This this guy flew in to meet my friend, and uh it was for dinner one night. Well, the next morning, his wife called him about mid-morning and said, Hey, there's a package um on our front doorstep. A FedEx had arrived. And when he got back that night and he opened up the package, it was Apple AirPods, and with it was a note that said, Hey, I really appreciate you lending your ear or listening to me yesterday uh at dinner. Um, let's keep the conversation going. And it was from the guy that he had met the night before. The irony of this gift is not only did it, you know, was kind of a pun for the fact that they sit down and talked and he gave him AirPods, he had to have sent that gift or had his assistant or someone send it before he traveled there to meet him, right? For it to show up on his doorstep the next morning, it was it was shipped the day before. I just thought that was a really impactful recruiting gift. And when we're talking about making an impact on high-level professionals or top producers, you know, 100-150 bucks for an AirPod may seem like a lot until you think about the impact that it made, right? I still remember this guy's name in the company, and I didn't even have a conversation with him because I was impressed just by the story. And then the last one was a gift that I actually gave. And you and I met at the Housing Wire Engage Marketing Summit a couple years ago, and I did a podcast with Ryan Sirhant, correct, in Dallas. And I did a live podcast recording with Ryan Sirhant from Million Dollar Listing. And in that podcast, I wasn't sure if I was going to get five minutes or 15. So what I had had done is prepared a couple of questions and then a lightning round. And in that lightning round, it was like, if you and your wife couldn't live in New York, where would you live? And you know, what's your favorite book outside of the book that you wrote? You know, funny little questions. And one of the asked uh questions was, What's your favorite childhood toy? And he said it was he no one had asked him that, and he said it's it was G.I. Joe, but not the little bitty ones. It was like, you know, the big 12-inch tall, you know, big life-size versions of that. So we moved on. Well, later, as I was thinking about what's a cool thank you gift, my wife actually had the idea, hey, let's go on Amazon and find one of those. And we were able to find, and it wasn't very much, it was like $50, which is kind of a lot, but I mean, in the grand scheme of things, found an unopened G.I. Joe from around the time he would have been playing with them in the 80s, and ordered that off Amazon and sent that as a thank you gift, and sent a card and whatever in his team, you know, said they got it and really thinked and said that Ryan liked it. And I thought that was a cool gift to send, and I'll compliment my wife in her astuteness is we listened. There, there's all kinds of things that you could give someone in the real estate industry, someone that's it's a national personality like that, but we really wanted to take a second and think about something that he would find meaningful or amusing or whatever. And so, you know, those are a couple of examples that come to mind of of you know, actually listening and you know, not putting your logo on the front of a 12-inch GI Joe and sending it out there.

SPEAKER_00 43:05

I love it. Yeah, all this stuff, it's not we're not talking $500 gifts here, you know, like the the IP um the AirPods are the most expensive thing we we talked about. But even let's say you have no budget at all, even though I'm a marketer and I know what's going on, when I get a handwritten, sincere, detailed card from somebody where it's more than just like, thank you, it was nice meeting you on insert date, you know. If it's they they talk about your specific relationship, that makes an impact on me. That makes an impact on anybody. So if you don't have a big budget for for gifts and and you just want to make an impact, just write some go to the dollar store, get some thank you cards, and write as as detailed, not not detailed like long, but um personalized. Uh thank you cards for those people and send them. That in and of itself at the at the bare minimum makes a huge impact. Don't make it about you. Don't put your business cards in there. Just say thank you. Just um that's it, man. Like I wish that we would start putting other people before us, realizing that that's how we actually accomplish what we want to do too, while having great relationships that last a long time rather than just transactional.

SPEAKER_01 44:29

Yeah, and and and you social media guys, you can find out anything you want. We're all checking in places and taking pictures places. We you can find out very quickly what someone likes, where what the community around where they live, and you can send them a $5 gift card to the local coffee shop that they meet a lot of meetings at, or you know, a $10 gift card to a restaurant that you know that they go to to grab an appetizer. Again, something small that took thought goes way further than an expensive gift that you're slapping a logo on. It does every time.

SPEAKER_00 45:08

Absolutely. Great stuff. Phil, I know you've been on this show before, but we're gonna do the rapid fire questions again in case you've totally flip-flopped in your life and and everything's different as far as what you like or don't like. So yeah, yeah, let's do it. Uh Facebook or Instagram? Instagram. Instagram or LinkedIn. Ugh. LinkedIn. Oh. Okay.

SPEAKER_01 45:30

I think I probably changed that one.

SPEAKER_00 45:32

So Facebook comes in third, huh? So LinkedIn, Instagram, Facebook for you?

SPEAKER_01 45:37

Yeah, I think my demographic and the people that uh I interact with most, I get through Instagram. I think everyone's on Facebook, but it's very crowded, it's very busy. And then LinkedIn, because of the organic reach, I'm still ramping up my personal content uh on LinkedIn. But when you hear Gary V's of the world and people talking about the organic reach that LinkedIn has, that's a real thing.

SPEAKER_00 46:01

It is. I've noticed it. I don't post nearly enough on LinkedIn, and but every time I do and I put any kind of thought into it and think about how I can best serve who this is intended for rather than what do I want to say? It just goes crazy. Like you get so much more reach than you ever would on the other platforms. LinkedIn is awesome. For sure. Books or podcasts?

SPEAKER_01 46:26

Oh, I'm a podcaster, but I'm still gonna say books. Jesus.

SPEAKER_00 46:31

That's just uh the wrong answer. That's not the wrong answer. Okay, how about this? Book or audiobook?

SPEAKER_01 46:38

Um, man, that depends on the context. I listen to more audiobooks than I read actual books. So I guess I'll have to say audible. But you just you do still like reading a physical book. Yes, I still prefer reading a physical book because of my calendar. I find myself consuming more books through Audible than actual books. Gotcha. Yes.

SPEAKER_00 46:58

And I I understand there is a I'm the same way. Podcasts, audible, like 98% of the time, but there's there's a certain power in holding a book, flipping the pages. You see, you can concentrate more because the other stuff, the reason you're listening to it is because you're doing something else. A thousand percent. You I don't know.

SPEAKER_01 47:18

Well, I also use the book summaries that I was telling you about as well as the audible to find out what books I want to do a deeper dive on. Like there's books that I say I've quote unquote read because I've listened to them on Audible, and then there's books that I study because I, you know, listen to them on Audible at, you know, one and a half, 1.75, and then I went back and listened to it slow and then read the book. So there is a difference there, but I think I use podcasts, summaries, and audible to find out what I want to go back and take a deeper dive in.

SPEAKER_00 47:47

So basically, choosing books over podcasts, and then you're a co-founder in our industry syndicate network. I mean, this is this is troubling, Phil.

SPEAKER_01 47:55

This is uh just saying lots of good books have contributed to all of the good content that are put out on podcasts. So while I love podcasts, you gotta have books in that equation.

SPEAKER_00 48:06

I'll I'll allow it. Insert the I'll allow it gif right there. Right. iPhone or Android? iPhone. Ugh. That's uh we'll not even go further into that. That's an obvious one. Alexa or Google Home? Alexa, hands down. Good call. Burgers or pizza?

SPEAKER_02 48:24

I think you were asking for the song hands down.

SPEAKER_01 48:26

No, definitely not.

SPEAKER_00 48:28

I was not asking for the song hands down.

SPEAKER_01 48:30

I was not always listening. Yes, she is always listening. Um burgers or pizza?

SPEAKER_00 48:36

Uh burgers. Whataburger or In N Out Burger?

SPEAKER_01 48:42

Oh crap, whataburger.

SPEAKER_00 48:45

Uh those things are huge. If you guys saw my Instagram stories from a few weeks ago, I was in Dallas with Phil. Phil took me to Whataburger for my first time. And man, I got a double, way too much food. Like I didn't even get a double. That should have been a hint, bro. Well, I was hungry. I couldn't have to be able to do it.

SPEAKER_01 49:06

It may as well, right? Well, I will say this. I like an in-and-out burger better than I do a Whataburger, but if I'm gonna go get a meal, I like the Whataburger meal because the in-and-out fries I don't like.

SPEAKER_00 49:18

That's fair. That's fair. So there's a place for both. Will you say Whataburger one more time? Whataburger. For a second there, you're doing the the stewy, like cool whip. Whip.

SPEAKER_01 49:29

Yeah, I have a have a tendency. I'm from Missouri and the whites, the whites come out as whites sometimes.

SPEAKER_00 49:36

Uh New York or LA? New York. I know you, so New York or Chicago.

SPEAKER_01 49:46

There's no place in the world like New York, but I love Chicago.

SPEAKER_00 49:51

Yes. Yeah. I think the first time we met, we had a conversation about this. I was talking about New York, and you mentioned, oh, Chicago's better, or if you like New York, you like Chicago or something, and I've never forgot that. I just haven't been to Chicago.

SPEAKER_01 50:04

So yeah, so I here's the thing: there's there's no place in the world like New York, but Chicago has a lot of New York feel with being able to raise your elbows, and it's cleaner. Yeah. And Chicago is a place as far as a really big city or urban place that I would consider living. I I really like Chicago. Um, but New York, I mean, there's just no city, there's no city like it.

SPEAKER_00 50:28

Fair enough. I'm gonna have to get my ass to Chicago to compare. Absolutely. Baseball or football? Baseball. Okay. Um, college or pro? College. Okay.

SPEAKER_01 50:44

Uh mountains or beach? That's tough. Um, I'm gonna say mountains.

SPEAKER_00 50:51

Have you been to Jackson Hole? I don't think so. No shit. All right, we're gonna have to do an industry syndicate like annual meeting up there or a a I don't know, like a workshop where people can come. If you're listening, maybe we'll do that in Jackson Hole. That place is just unreal. Incredible.

SPEAKER_01 51:08

Yeah, see, I've heard good things about it, and and that's the thing, is a lot of these questions are tough because my wife and I do like tropical, but the beach itself, like, it's sandy and it's dirty, and like I'll go sit by a pool in a beach tropical location, but as far as going to a beach or the mountains, man, I love the mountains.

SPEAKER_00 51:27

Yeah, there's something there's something about them. Even though I live, you know, 10-15 minutes away from them. I still don't take mountains for granted. They're just um oops, phone's beeping. Um, there's just something awesome about it. For sure. Podcasting or vlogging? Podcasting. Nice. There you go. Redeemed yourself. YouTube or Facebook Live? YouTube. Uber or Lyft? Uber? Gary V or Grant Cardone. Gary V. Good call. And then give us an app recommendation. Any new apps that you're that you're messing around with these days?

SPEAKER_01 52:09

Honestly, no. I think I had a good recommendation. The app recommendation I'm gonna give right now is Industry Syndicate. You need to go to Google Play or the Apple App Store and download the Industry Syndicate app and hear our shows. We're gonna we got a lot of cool things coming. I know that sounds self-serving, but that's the the newest app I'm spending a lot of time with uh right now. Um, I know there's a lot of cool ones out there, but that's the plug I'm gonna give.

SPEAKER_00 52:32

I love it. See, all of that bullshit up until this point was was just that. And now, finally, finally, some some good advice from you. Finally, some some self-promotion here. Yeah, finally, geez. Uh Phil, appreciate it, man. Appreciate you uh you rescuing the show um from yet another uh solo episode and and being being the first repeat guest on the Massive Agent podcast. And guys, if you have not ever listened to Phil's Mortgage Marketing Expert Podcast, you really need to. I don't care if you're a if you're an agent and and his show has the word mortgage in it. Doesn't matter. It's it's super actionable stuff. He's talking to the best of the best of the mortgage industry, and and I was on there too, which is weird. One of these things is not like the other. Uh but you're gonna learn it, you have to branch out. You have to start learning from others who are doing the same things, just in slightly different areas, and you're gonna learn so much more than if you only listen to agents. So go listen to mortgage marketing expert. Phil does a great job. He's he's uh one of the co-founders of the industry syndicate and the director of operations. So he's uh he's a big shot. He's not promoted himself.

SPEAKER_01 53:49

Yeah, sounds all fancy. And I and I appreciate that plug. Yeah, we the podcast is mortgage marketing expert. Probably two-thirds of the guests we've had have been, you know, very much mortgage personalities and and mortgage professionals, but the content is transcendent between mortgage and real estate. We also have a large insurance audience, but we've had you know Ryan Sirhant, we've had Dustin, who are both firmly in the real estate side of things, Travis Tom, who's a phenomenal real estate marketer. Uh, we've had Gary Vanderchuk. I can't go without saying that you and I were obviously at Vayner Media at Hudson Yards doing uh doing a podcast recording with him.

SPEAKER_00 54:26

Uh Steve feels like it was three years ago, but it wasn't. Doesn't it?

SPEAKER_01 54:29

And it's only been like two months. Wow.

SPEAKER_00 54:31

We gotta get back. We gotta get back there, my friend.

SPEAKER_01 54:33

Right. We're we're losing relevance. We got to start all over again.

SPEAKER_00 54:36

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Totally. No, I I appreciate you being on the show, man. You're doing some great stuff. It's it's it's great to be a business with you. It's great to have you as a friend. Um, I'm I certainly learn a lot from you. And so, everybody listening, go follow Phil Treadwell on social media. Go follow and listen to mortgage marketing expert, and you're gonna learn some some great stuff. Phil, thanks, my friend. I will talk to you soon. Appreciate you having me on, brother. You bet. Yeah, I just want to reiterate, guys, this is an armless friendly show. If if you if you're missing arms or any any any appendage, any digit, any appendage or digit or phalange, um, this is the show for you. We are we are friendly to that. We um we accommodate all here, I I guess, except for those with their heads and their ass. We we accommodate all but those with heads and asses. So there you go. I'm just gonna drop the shovel now. And uh, yeah. So Phil Phil Treadwell, guys, if you don't know him yet, he is he is such a player in the mortgage industry for sure. He's one of the most respected mortgage professionals out there. He's been an originator, he he's built teams, he's built branches, he's he's built regions, he knows the mortgage business. He's actually doing it in the trenches and helping others to do it as well, and he puts out amazing content. When I went to uh to New York back in October uh to Gary V to Gary V's office, it was for Phil's podcast interview with Gary V with Gary V. So Phil was able to do the interview in Gary V's office, and I was able to tag along as the third wheel, fifth wheel, whatever, and it was fantastic. Um tagging along has never felt so good. But uh he's the man. So thank you, Phil, for being back on the mortgage. Wow, I'm almost geez, guys. Thank you for being back on the Massive Agent Podcast and go listen to his show. You could check it out as well on the Industry Syndicate app. If you don't have it, get it. I'm telling you, there's gonna be a lot of exclusive content that you can only get through the Industry Syndicate app that's coming here in the next week or two, and big stuff coming January 1st from the Industry Syndicate, but you have to have the app in order to get all of it. Just to reiterate, go get your Easy Agent Pro website while you can, while it's still just a dollar. Like literally, you can check out and get it set up and everything for one dollar, and you're gonna get the 12 months of CRM or the CRM for 12 months, but you have to use discount code Dustin at massivagentpodcast.com slash EAP. And if you're like, what does this include? Like, is this just another basic website? Is this no all the bells and whistles, landing pages, texting, um, lead capture, like CRM, everything's included. Just go get a walkthrough. They'll they'll give you a tour of it. It's not a high pressure thing. I promise you, I would not be working with them if they were high pressure. Just go go get a tour from them of everything that's included, and you're gonna be like, holy shit, this is all less than $200 a month. Uh wow. It is the best value in the industry. They build these websites for agents and loan officers. If you're a lender, you're not excluded from this. Go get yourself an Easy Agent Pro website today and support them for supporting us. I want to thank you again for listening to the show. If you are a repeat listener or you're here for the first time, if you learned something new today, if you found value in it, if it helped you, if you're if you took down a couple notes of things, I ask that all all we ask is that to ref r jeez, I am struggling today, guys. I think I need a coffee. All we ask is to return the favor, if you feel you've received value, all we ask is that you leave a review on iTunes. It helps us out tremendously. It's like a an SEO kind of thing for podcasts to help our show show up when people look for real estate podcasts. If we're able to grow our audience, we can attract bigger, uh, bigger name guests. Better guests do do really awesome things that we're not able to today. So help us to do that to make this show better for you. All you have to do is go to MassiveAgent Podcast.com slash review, and that'll take you directly to iTunes where you can leave a review or a rating. Ratings where you just click the number of stars, which is cool, that's helpful. If you click the number of stars, the five is the correct answer. Oh, by the way, in case you were wondering, when you click the five stars, then uh you can leave a review, please do that. Takes what 15 seconds. Just say what you liked about it, say what you learned, whatever, and uh and hit submit. And you have done your part to make this show incredible. So thank you guys, everyone who has already done that, thank you. Everyone who shared an episode or mentioned this show to a friend or a colleague or their broker or a team member, thank you. I appreciate it. I will be back next week with Tyler Jack Harris. If you don't know him, go look up Tyler Jack Harris on Instagram. Incredibly inspirational, a great business mind, and and you we're really gonna have fun because he's he's been winning in a very, very big way in the insurance space, in the entrepreneurship space, and all of that stuff has direct links and direct parallels to what we're doing as agents and loan officers. So I'm really looking forward to that interview next week on episode 104. Thank you so much for listening, guys. Go out there, go close some loans, go sell some homes. Take care, yes.